Monday, January 22, 2007

Blogging for Choice Day

The author at Uncommon Misconception offers a compelling and heart wrenching story about late term abortion. It is a must read for anyone who has strong opinions on this issue.

The ACLU of Pennsylvania tells us "reproductive freedom means the right to make informed decisions about whether and when to become a parent without government interference and to access a broad range of reproductive health care including contraceptives, prenatal care, treatment for sexually transmitted disesase, and abortion."

Click here to see what the law is in your state regarding access to abortion.

Bardiac put up a post full of good links including this one:

"The National Network of Abortion Funds can help you find local resources to help fund care for women who don't have access for financial reasons."

Baxter Sez is blogging for Choice because "a woman's ability to determine whether and when she gets pregnant affects every other aspect of her life. Everything--my relationships, my job, my economic status, my existence in my own body--would be affected were I to get pregnant. Now, that's not to say that they would be affected in a negative way, but they would be affected, and only I am in a position to weigh all the factors and judge whether or not pregnancy and motherhood are right for me."

This post from This Woman's Work inspired some thoughtful comments from a blog community focused on infertility issues and adoption.

Anna Winter Links us to Feministing and Pandagon, with this concept:

"We’re living in a time where pregnant women are roundly punished—whether they decide to terminate the pregnancy or carry it to term...our capacity for getting pregnant is what connects us all in this mess of discrimination and punishment."

Buddy's Books says:

"The right-wingers have always known that once women finally secured certain freedoms, like reproductive and sexual rights, society would adapt, changes would be swift, and control over women would cease. The outcome, in their sick minds, would be devastating—women would join the work force, run for office, speak out on social issues, and even challenge the authority of the husbands. Hell on earth!!!!!

That’s why we must never compromise with these perverse individuals. They care little about fetuses--what they want is power. And believe me, these right-wingers stay up nights lamenting and shedding tears over what has happened since the 1960s: women’s rights, feminism, racially-mixed marriages, gay marriages, civil rights."


Not That Desperate has a powerful post about her mother regarding sexual control over women.

Caffeinated Geek Girl tells us:

"My right to make decisions about my own well being are constantly being assaulted for no other reason than because I am a woman... I'm pro-choice because I know what's best for my own existence, and trust that other women know what's best for theirs."

Carrie Callahan cracked me up with her video and humor. She jokes:

"I used to be really pro-life in high school, but what changed for me was in college I had a pregnancy scare.
Before my pregnancy scare I thought about abortion in terms of "When does human life begin?" and "When can the government regulate people's bodies?" And then after the pregnancy scare, the question that kind of framed the debate for me was, "You want me to have a motherf*cking baby?"

Alexandria brings up two important points:

1) "I realized early on that getting pregnant means more than just baby powder and diapers. It means a woman is changed–economically, physically, professionally, and emotionally. In the best of circumstances, those changes are all positive, but too often, they’re not."

2) "Abortion will not go away, whether or not is it legal. Women who can afford to will simply have them elsewhere. Poorer women, or those without health care, will have them, too–in unsterilized, unprofessional, and dangerous environments."


Delightfully Dogmatic is right on when she says:

"I wish I could tell you how many young women I have heard argue that there is "no need for feminism." That "women are equal." One needs to look no further than the battle over contraception and abortion to understand that simply isn't true."

Feministe hits all the talking points and provides a platter of worthy linkage too. (Rock on girl, you must be exhausted!)

And for that matter, so am I.

I have been reading and linking all morning, and am only half way through the list.

I will conclude by saying, I am Pro-Choice because I stand in solid support of each and every one of these women, and I hope you do too.

31 comments:

Sandra said...

Thanks for the great links, there's a lot of good reading today.

Rosie said...

I've been having a great time reading everyone's blog entries. I'm still wading through them all! Thanks for the great post and links.

Carrie said...

Thanks so much for the link, and also for pointing me in the direction of some great blog entries. This day has been such a cool celebration of Roe.

The Fat Lady Sings said...

And still people don't get it. They just don't get it. They barrel through life wearing blinders - a choice they would deny America’s women. I have known three different women whose fetus died in utero. Twice - the doctors forced the woman to carry the dead baby until their body expelled it. In one case the infection that resulted forever denied her the chance to ever get pregnant again. Choice isn't political - it's a medical necessity.

gregjaye said...

Where are the Babies’ Rights in all of This?

Today is a very sad and shameful day in the history of America. . . .”

There are all kinds of rights being claimed and bantered about these days by various groups and every Tom, Dick and Hillary, including:

· Minority Rights
· Women’s Rights
· Immigrant Rights
· Muslim Religious Rights
· Civil Rights
· Voter Rights
· Homosexual & Lesbian Rights
· Even Death Row Murderers have endless Appeal rights
· Even Animal “Rights”

Today marks is a day of infamy worse than even Pearl Harbor, it is the 34th anniversary of the Supreme Court’s tragic decision to legalize abortion-on-demand. What a horrific injustice wrought by seven Kowardly Kourt Klansmen dressed in black robes instead of white sheets, the United States Supreme Court.

WHAT ABOUT THE BABY? The baby is a unique and separate INDIVIDUAL, unique and different from the mother. Killing that baby and thereby denying his or her right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is wrong and is a PUBLIC matter not a private one. It is unethical it is unconstitutional. How easy it is to deny life to the defenseless. This is the epitome of bully-hood. Shame on America for 'TOLERATING' such evil for so long!!!

Read more at:

http://agoodchoice.blogspot.com/2007/01/where-are-babies-rights-in-all-of-this.html

dew said...

Thanks for including comments from my Blog. I am a new Blogger--and really enjoying it! Glad to have made a new contact. I like your Blog and will keep reading! dew

Buddy's Books and Bait
http://www.Buddy-BB.blogspot.com

Kelley Bell said...

Gregjaye:

You are a guy, so unless your position is some form of manditory castration for unmarried sexually active males, you don't have a dog in this fight.

Please read the links. You will learn alot.

kristen said...

Greg is right when he says that it is a very shameful day in American history...thousands of Iraqi citizens have been killed in the course of the US occupation (including CHILDREN)...thousands of our nationa's women and children have no access to healthcare....thousands more will spend many long nights in shelters and outside because they do not make enough at their minimum wage job to support themselves....the US global gag order forces women to endure relationships of violence and sexual exploitation rather than relationships of equality and safety.

So, yes, Greg....it is sad. And while you are consumed with defining when life begins, the rest of us will be coming up with answers to these problems.

gregjaye said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gregjaye said...

Kelley -

You said, "Unless your position is some form of mandatory castration for unmarried sexually active males, you don't have a dog in this fight". Our worldviews certainly do clash, but thanks for the opportunity to share my take . . .

My position is that any male who gets any female pregnant should be responsible for supporting that child until they (the child) is an adult. Garnishment of wages, imprisonment or whatever it takes would be the consequence of extramarital sex. . If the sex was consensual, both the man and woman would be responsible. If it were rape the man should be either executed or made to work to support the woman and the baby through age 18 or so. In prison the male should be put to productive work six days a week to be made to pay for their wrong. It is not the baby's fault so why punish the innocent baby for his or her parent’s indiscretion? Why let the hedonists-“parents” of the hook and get off scott free to continue to make babies and continue the killing cycle?

gregjaye said...

kristen -

You said, "You are consumed with defining when life begins, the rest of us will be coming up with answers to these problems..."

When we degrade life, when we regard it as insignificant, when we treat it as being disposable . . . we have no firm foundation on which to build a civilized society. We are no better than the savages of Africa who worship demons from hell or no better than the animals who eat their young.

Without the respect for life from conception to natural death we build our lives and our society on shifting sand.

Kelley Bell said...

Gregjaye,

What is your opinion on This case?

Kelley Bell said...

Also,

Let us all please refrain from making derogatory comments about people from other cultures and their religious beliefs.

gregjaye said...

Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

Barbara and her husband faced an extremely difficult decision in the case you cited, Kelley. However, I believe they made a wrong decision as is nearly EVERY decision to kill an innocent pre-born baby thru chemical aborticides, surgical abortion or cloning or embryonic stem cell research.

In essence Barbara and her husband CHOSE to play God. By aborting the baby they took God’s place. All life begins at conception. All life is sacred from conception to natural death. It is up to God, only, to determine who lives and who dies. I admit it is extremely difficult. However, this is still no reason to murder a child. Perhaps God’s reason for permitting this baby was to teach the parents some lesson.

You know what is really intolerable? Nearly a ¼ of black babies are now being aborted. This would have pleased eugenicist Margaret Sanger, though. It sure cannot be pleasing God, however.

Kelley Bell said...

I worked in animal rehab for a long time, and I can not imagine letting any living creature endure needless pain and suffering.

It's just wrong.

The God argument does little for me. First, I think modern Christians grossly misinterpert the biblical writings of the ancient Middle East, and second, the bible is full of justified killing.

David slew Golliath.

Sarah had her step son cast out into the desert to die.

God ordered Aberham to sacrifice his perfectly healthy son.

God sacrificed his own son on the cross for the sake of others.

God killed of everyone in the flood.

If we were born in his image, then we have the free will to make those choices too.

He gave us free will in Eden, so who the hocky pucks are you to take it away?

gregjaye said...

Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

Free will does not equal free to kill. The senseless destruction of innocent human beings in the name of a woman’s right to choose is immoral and unethical even though the majority of Kowardly Kourt Klansmen dressed in black unhooded robes also playing God declared it to be so.

The taking of life is wrong, it is unconstitutional it is immoral.


You said, "David slew Goliath." [Correct, the Philistines were enemies of Israel and David was the only one brave enough to face the giant. In war there is no substtute for victoy, be it the Philistnes, the Germans or the Terrorists in Iraq!]

You add, "Sarah had her step son cast out into the desert to die." [She was wrong, God intervened to save her concubine’s son.]

You say, "God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his perfectly healthy son." [God did this to test Abraham’s faith. An angel of God intervened and stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac.]

You said, "God sacrificed his own [S]on on the cross for the sake of others." [This was the ultimate expression of love – For God so loved the world that He GAVE his only begotten Son, that whoever would believe in Him could be reconciled to God. Without Jesus’ atoning death all mankind would have been forever lost. Now only those who reject or worship another god will be condemned to eternal separation from God.]

You say, "God killed off everyone in the flood." [Mankind deserved this, as we do today. Without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, man is doomed. Mankind, during the time of Noah was described as being so wicked that every thought and intent of their heart’s – their inner being - was evil continually. God being the creator can do whatever He chooses to do, He is not bound by any law. He is the absolute ruler of the universe. We all deserve to be eternally separated from God, but only through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ can we have life.}

You say, "If we were born in his image, then we have the free will to make those choices too." [No, we are made in the image and likeness of God, but we are not gods, Kelley. We can choose many things, but we have no right to say when someone lives or someone dies for any flimsy excuse. The execution of the death penalty for tried, convicted death row inmates is NOT the same as murdering innocent babies in their mother’s wombs, nor is euthanizing an elderly or disabled person, nor is experimenting with embryonic stem cells or cloning human beings. There are moral absolutes and one of them is Thou Shalt Not Kill.]

You also said, "He gave us free will in Eden, so who the hockey pucks are you to take it away?" [Again free will does not mean freedom to kill, nor does it mean freedom to do anything I please. We are free within the parameters established by God. God has standards, God has boundaries. Man is not a god, though Secular Humanists have that as the major tenet of their “faith”.]

Kelley Bell said...

It would be very easy to go off topic here, and debate the bible to refute your arguments, but the main idea I am trying to share with you is that Criminalization of women is not an effective or ethical means to reduce the need for abortion.

The goal can be achieved if both sides agree to focus on EMPOWERING women, by providing healthcre, education, prevention and support.

Your militant punitive approach is reprehensable.

gregjaye said...

Kelly –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

You say, “Criminalization of women is not an effective or ethical means to reduce the need for abortion”. No one is saying “criminalize women”. I am saying, however, that all abortion is immoral and unethical and should be made illegal ASAP, or criminalized if you choose to use that word.

The resulting baby in a sexual encounter is the on-going responsibility of the perpetrating parents, period. If the parents do not own up to their responsibility, then they (the man and the woman) should be ordered by the court to provide for the child either together, or through one of the two taking guardianship and the other providing significant financial support, or having both of their wages garnished after having both of them serving significant prison time or jailed and made to repay the state and or orphanages or foster parents of the child. This will serve as a deterrent to the rampant sexual promiscuity promoted by Hollywood, our schools, TV, the media and by the Hedonistic philosophy of many others on the left as well as that of organizations such as insidious Planned Promiscuity (misnamed Parenthood) Federation of America.

No one, neither women, nor men, nor physicians should be “empowered” to kill babies or the disabled (read Terri Schiavo) the elderly in the name of convenience or inheritance or personal pleasure.

Kelley, my “punitive” approach is the only sane, common sense, rational, American solution. Abortion stops a beating human heart.

See my article on A Good Choice blog dealing with the need for the passage of a Right to Life Act. [http://agoodchoice.blogspot.com/2007/01/pass-right-to-life-act-now.html]

Kelley Bell said...

I have read your blog Gregjay, and I found it interesting.

You have a long list of people to hate on your
"America’s enemy list" including:


Islamo-terrorists, The ACLU, George Soros, Adriana Huffington, Michael Moore, pornographers, Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, Hugh Heffner, Hollywood, The moneyed and mighty, homosexuals Planned Parenthood, abortion doctors, Greedy capitalists, Ken Lay, Wal-Mart, those who will deal with the devil (China), Religious leaders who profane the name of Jesus, and various politicians.

It totally cracks me up!

Here you are "defending life" against "women who murder their babies," and what I see when I read the story of baby Thomas and his parents, are two responsible loving people grappling with a deeply personal and difficult medical decission, while YOU are out there spouting hate against everyone and everything that is not just like you.

I think you should take some time off from politics, and spend some time in therapy to find out where all that hate and judgment is coming from.

Either that, or become a Muslim and move to Iraq where all the men think just like you.

gregjaye said...

Hey Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

You say, “Here you are "defending life" against "women who murder their babies," That is right I am defending life, however I am not necessarily “against women” Actually I am for women, many women are harmed through the process of abortion physically and through the misinformation that they are provided by the insidious Planned Promiscuity (Parenthood) and similar organization.

I am against abortion and the proponents and financiers of keeping it – a culture of death - institutionalized in the American culture. I do not hate individuals. However, I do hate immorality and the behavior of those who commit it in the name of “justice”, “fairness” “diversity” “choice”, “tolerance” or “political correctness”. The true meanings of all these words have been hijacked and twisted to promote the leftist liberal, socialist agenda. The main stream media are willing accomplices in the evil endeavor to corrupt our society, as is Hollywood, as is our so-called educational leaders especially the leaders of the powerful NEA and AFT. This is what I truly hate.

The only therapy I need is to listen to God through His scriptures to direct me as to how to best combat the cruelty being foisted on the pre-born and born children of this once great and godly Nation.

AGoodChoice.blogspot.com

P.S. my fellow blogger responded to your comment to his Sunday’s blog article @

http://agoodchoice.blogspot.com/2007/01/serpent-deceiver.html

Kelley Bell said...

If abortion is outlawed, it must be enforced with criminal penalties. If it is "murder" then every woman who has an abortion, and every doctor who performs the procedure will be guilty of murder.

In order to enforce this law, our justice system will need people to "investigate" any woman suspected of having abortion or inducing miscarriage.

We will fill our prisons with decent citizens like Thomas's parents.

Our prisons are already over capacity.
We do not have enough doctors.
Our government does not have the funds to deal with the current caseloads in the courts.

And there are still women, who will get back ally abortions, not because they are "selfish" but because they are desperate and have no other good choice.

Lets solve this problem by providing healthcare, education and prevention tools for women, and create a culture that supports working women with small children by providing healthcare and daycare and carreer tools.

Lets pass the Prevention First Act and support Planned Parenthood in their quest to care for and empower women.

Let us respect each and every woman to consult with her family and her doctor on matters of fertility.

Women deserve respect.

Judge not lest ye be judged, dude.

gregjaye said...

Hi Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

“If [abortion] is "murder" then every woman who has an abortion, and every doctor who performs the procedure will be guilty of murder.” When abortion becomes illegal again, yes, it would be a crime. I think most people will be willing to obey the law. Those that choose not do so like any other persons doing something illegal – if they get caught they will pay the piper.

Abortion as with murder or as with any other serious crime may involve conducting an investigation. So? You exaggerate about “filing our prisons” with woman “denying decent, and deserving woman an abortion” for whatever reason.

Our prisons are filled with illegal aliens that should be sent back to their countries of origin immediately, but this is another matter.

We should change our entire current flawed view of sex education and irresponsible, noncommittal sex. Reform our schools, build in personal responsibility. Teach men to take responsibility. Teach women the joy of motherhood. The environment and culture needs to change to make it less likely that any woman would need a “back alley abortion.”

Let’s de-fund and otherwise shut down Planned Promiscuity (Parenthood) that fosters a culture of free love, if it feels good do it anytime anywhere with anyone. This is hedonism. Instead let us strengthen instead of tear down traditional marriage. Let’s repeal no-fault divorce. Let’s jail mothers or fathers who refuse to pay child support.

Yes, woman deserves respect. But so does all human life. The pre-born baby deserves respect. Let’s begin by respecting the sanctity of life – from conception to natural death.

Thou shalt not kill, Kelley.

Kelley Bell said...

The kind of morality you speak of can not be compelled by rule of law.

It must come from the heart.

Punishment is not the answer.

So go ahead and contine the fight for your personal view of morality instead of seeking compromise and common ground.

Go ahead and spend billions of dollars on legal battles and politics, just as you anti choicers have for the past thirty years.

And while you are putting your money there, we will be using ours to provide health services to as many women as we can.

gregjaye said...

Hi Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

You say, “The kind of morality you speak of can not be compelled by rule of law.” But the law should be compelled by morality. Without morality the law is nothing. That is the purpose of the law to outline for society the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. What better measure of right and wrong than morality. There exists absolute morality. The founders of America knew it, we have seemed lost respect for the moral basis of the law sometime the past 100 years or so.

Punishment is not the answer, doing the right thing IS the answer.Punishing the innocent baby and letting the irresponsible parents get off scott-free is not the anwer.

There is no compromise when it comes to the needless execution of babies at a rate of 4,000 per day!

I am not an anti-choicer (typical liberal speak for “go ahead and kill the babies at will”). I am pro-life. I am anti-abortion. I am for making A Good Choice and saving lives instead of destroying lives!

Put some of “your” money (i.e., taxpayer’s money) to reform the educational system to incorporate character development, abstinence and respect for life and traditional one-man, one-woman marriage! Instead of funding Planned Parenthood, an ineffective condom based, free-loving sex education . . .

Kelley Bell said...

'Scuse me folks, while I zap ol GJ with the CLUE GUN...

gregjaye said...

iiozidKelley –

Are not embryos real life? Does not human life begin when the sperm unites with or fertilizes the egg? Isn’t that basic science, Biology 101 stuff? Each of us started our lives at that point. I just do not see what is so difficult or complex about this simple fact. Some people demand proof, but isn’t it obvious? If we were to rewind our life, we would follow ourselves to the point that our father’s sperm united with our mother’s egg. That was the point we came into being. If we look at our life as a continuum from this moment in time, back until that moment of our conception, where else would you have become the unique you?

If your life did not begin at the moment of conception when did you become you? Was it:


• When you reached the age of reason or accountability, say at age 7 or 8?

• When you spoke your first words? When you took your first step?

• At the point you took your first breath? Or was it when the doctor slapped your behind at birth?

• At the point you first felt pain in your mother’s womb?

• @ 30 weeks

• @ 24 weeks?

• @ 12 weeks?

• @ 6 weeks?

• @ conception?

• Before the beginning of time when God planned for you being in this world –He had you in mind - He designed you and fearfully and wonderfully made you?


Please tell me Kelley, when your life began along this continuum, if not at the point of conception. It is very logical and scientific and rational, in my mind at least, to say that all life begins at conception, or even earlier!

When is Life a Life?

“Clueless” gregjaye

AgoodChoice.blogspot.com

Kelley Bell said...

Many religions claim "Breath is Life" and even the Catholic and Jewish churches had official doctrines of "ensoulment" claiming the sould did not enter the body until some 40 days after birth.

In some Eskimo tribes, when a child is born, and there are circumstances like deformity or scarcity of food, the baby is laid out on the ice to die.

It happens. Life is rough. Death is part of life. There are so many stories of justified mercy killing out there, I could spend weeks citing them.

As an animal rehab worker, my mission is to nurture and heal injured wildlife, but part of the work includes making those tough decissions about euthinasia.

I know from first hand experience, sometimes killing is the right thing to do.

Humans are no exception.

gregjaye said...

Kelley -

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

Oh contraire, Kelley, human beings are not mere animals. Human beings are a much higher life form than are all animals. I would concede that there are a few lowlifes among us and many happen to also be lawyers or politicians, but most human beings are in a class by themselves.

Humans were designed and destined to have absolute control over the animal world and all of nature. That doesn’t mean that we are free to destroy it, but should be free to enjoy it and to use animals for food, etc. . .

But we digress from the subject at hand. Abortion and euthanasia are never appropriate for human beings. We play God when we try to say who lives and who dies and when and where they die.

Kelley, are you also saying life begins sometime after birth?

Kelley Bell said...

GJ,
You and I are quite different. I am a systems theory style thinker, while you seem to gravitate to the old Cartesian model of the universe.

That's O.K. Each to their own.

I do not agree with your point of view.
Your argument, based on the Bible does little for me, as I am not a big fan of the book.

Your asserition that you are justified in breaking one comandment in favor of another (Judge vs. kill) makes no sense.

If your worldview is based on The Ten Comandments, you must adhere to all of them. Dont kill, and dont judge others.

There is no comandment saying you should judge others for killing and stop them.

As for your assertion that humans are above and apart from nature, well, I totally disagree with that, and feel strongly that this concept is very destructive.

Excerpt from Grist interview with Bill Moyers:

Grist: There is a strain of environmentalism that says the root cause of our problems is our sense of being apart from the rest of the natural world -- above it, in a position to decide what parts of it live, what parts die, and what parts we want to take. Evangelical Christianity endorses the notion that mankind is chosen by God and given dominion over the earth.

Bill Moyers: Certainly. That is a strain of dominion theology that had a very strong and powerful appeal. It has lost its appeal as we have gone from 1 billion to 2 billion to 4 billion to 6 billion-plus people now. To think that we are apart from nature becomes impossible when the water we drink is poisoned by the slurry from mountaintop removal [mining], or when the trout start dying in the Green River. Nature is affecting our lives, our bodies, our health, and our longevity.

There is a historic strain of dominion theology which says, taking its references from the Psalms, that man is made just a little lower than God, and that we are the crown of creation. That interpretation has come at the expense of the one that says when God, in the story of Noah, intervened to save human life against the flood, against the acts of nature, He did not stop with human beings. He made sure that every kind of animal was represented twice on that ark.

gregjaye said...

Hi Kelley –

WARNING: The opinions, ideas, philosophy and worldview held by this writer come directing out of A no-pc-zone, so if you are a far leftist liberal you may CHOOSE to immediately delete, ignore or turn away from the following words.

Boy, it sure is cold here in Ohio tonight, it is somewhere below 0 degrees. We have had an extremely mild winter to date. Winter has arrived. Wasn’t sure my car was going to start this morning.

You said, “Your assertion that you are justified in breaking one commandment in favor of another (Judge vs. kill) makes no sense.” Discernment is not necessarily judgment. You would certainly be right, if there were not moral absolutes in the world. However, there are moral absolute. There are definitely things that are good or right and there are things that are bad or evil and flat out wrong. Abortion, homosexuality (behavior) pornography, theft, etc.

Some of these things may be “legal” but all are wrong, evil and bad for any civilized society. Our Founding Fathers would agree across the board. They based the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution and much of the structure of the government on Judeo-Christian principles and values, despite what historical revisionists and secular humanists declare today.

Biblical injunctions such as the 10 Commandments serve as a guide to life and conduct. As a true believer in Jesus Christ, made acceptable to God only through His (Jesus’) atoning work on the Cross, I am not bound by the law. The law actually exists to point out sin and wrong. I willingly obey the law of my love for God, not out of obligation or duty.

You contend, “There is no commandment saying you should judge others for killing and stop them.” There is a general statement that God said, “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” This applies to everyone. This applies to the woman considering obtaining an abortion. It applies to the physician and his or her accomplices in the act of murder. It has nothing to do with “judging” someone. There is no debate whether it is right or wrong. It is always wrong to murder or deliberately kill an innocent person. I distinguish between the deliberate killing of the innocent (i.e. pre-born babies) and death row inmates, who are guilty of a heinous crime, or casualties of war, or murdering someone in self-defense.

You claim that I said, “As for your assertion that humans are above and apart from nature, well, I totally disagree with that, and feel strongly that this concept is very destructive.’ What I said is that man is the highest form of creation, all other creatures are subservient to man and exist for his benefit. This concept is common sense as well as a fact of life. Animals exist for man for food and clothing (though not as much as they once were, especially in well-developed societies. To consider animals equal to man is ludicrous and injurious to the welfare of some societies (Hindus deny allowing the eating of cows, which would bring nourishment to many.) Basically, God commanded man to have control over all nature. That doesn’t mean we are to destroy or misuse nature, but to be good stewards. Catch only the fish that we will eat, and don’t over fish, etc.

Moyer’s comment, “Man is made just a little lower than God, and that we are the crown of creation,” is accurate and absolutely true. It is a theme of the Judeo-Christian Bible and practice for 1000s of years. PETA people may disrespect and disregard it, but that does in no way diminish the truth of the fact that we are made in the image of God and just lower than Him. I can see how you cannot buy this because it is so critical to your worldview that there is no God and there are no moral absolutes . . .

Stay warm Kelley . .

Kelley Bell said...

You too.

Thanks for the debate.

I'm glad we kept it civil, and sad that we could not find middle ground.

But please, please, consider supporting The Prevention First Act.

It IS the middle ground. A place where we can both work together to eliminate the need for abortion, by providing women with the health care, education and prevention tools they need to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

It is a much better solution than criminalization.